A Selective Transcription and Translation of Kihizō Kimura interview

Archival Institution: Royal BC Museum, Call number T0198:0001 – 0005

  1. File 001_1
  2. 11 min 25 sec to 12 min 30 sec

On the implication of the prewar exclusionary policy and the alleged “passivity” of the Issei

聞き手：それは結局戦争のあとの、1949年ころ（だった）

木村：そうなんですよ、ええ、えーと何年か覚えてませんがね、その頃からようやく参政権がもらえたためにですね、今では今度は二世の若い人はわからないかもしれませんね。年とった人はもちろん、それはよくわかっているでしょう。けど三世の人はそういうことはもう経験がないですね。したがって、『どうも自分たちの父や祖父（笑）まあ父や祖父ですな、なぜあんなにその白人たちに遠慮するか、という具合にですね、考える人もあるでしょう。もちろんそりゃ遠慮したわけではないんですけども、しかし少なくとも「排斥の対象になるような行為はするなよ」、っていうことはみんな子供に言いつけてそだてたもんなんですよ。12min30sec　えーですからね、おかしいことがあるんですよ。日本の人はよく、『あ、他人さんに笑われるから』ということを言いますよね、そうするとね、私共がまだ若いころにはね、よく日本人の婦人の方がね、『あ、そんなことしたら毛唐さんに笑われるよ』って、こういって子供をたしなめたもんですよ。

Interviewer: So that was after the war, around 1949

Kimura: Yes, that’s right. I don’t recall exactly what year it was, but from around that time the Japanese were given the right to political participation. Today, the younger Nisei might not understand [the implications of the institutional discrimination by exclusionary policies]. The older ones would surely understand it well, but the Sansei don’t have the experience. Therefore, they may say, “Why were our fathers and grandfathers–(laughter) yes we would be fathers and grandfathers—so passive (sic enryo) toward hakujin (whites)?” Certainly, however, it is not that we were passive, but at minimum, we all taught children not to do anything that could become a target of exclusionary measures. (12min 30sec). There is an interesting story. You know how the Japanese often say, “people will laugh at you [if you do this or that]? Well, back in the days when I was young, Japanese ladies admonished children by saying to them, “if you do such a thing, ketō-san (“hairy foreigners,” a pejorative for “foreigners” especially white people) would laugh at you.”

*Note immediately preceding this segment is Kimura’s discussion of the prewar exclusionary policy and the denial of the right to political participation, from 7 min 34 sec

  1. File 003_1

Approx. 0 min 22 sec to 3 minutes 40 sec

On the catalogue of 1037 vessels

Reading from the Memoir, page 14 of the Japanese text

[from “Masutani New Trans”]

“February 4th:

The Liaison Committee, Fisherman’s Association, Fisherman’s Union and the boat owners together collected information to make a catalogue of the 1,037 Japanese Canadian fishing boats. Then, office clerks at the Canadian Salt-Cod Export Company typed up forms with the necessary memos attached. The catalogue was completed much faster than expected and submitted to the committee… (parenthesis not read) In addition to the 1,037 boats, those belonging to interned owners or absent owners stuck in Japan were not included. The committee has nothing to do with those boats. It was the Custodian that held administrative authority over them) [1min40sec]

Catalogue details were as follows:

  1. Name of vessel
  2. Official number
  3. Naval Control Number
  4. Port and date of registry
  5. Registered gross and net tonnage
  6. Length, width and depth of vessel
  7. Make and manufacture date of present engine; date if and when re-installed; horse power and knot speed
  8. When hull built; rebuilt
  9. Type of vessel (according to its use) seiner; packer; gill-netter; troller; cod fishing boat; trawler; other
  10. Place of operation (for example: Fraser River; Skeena River; West Coast of Vancouver Island, etc.)
  11. Replacement value; present value; insured value; date when surveyed last
  12. Charter rate in 1940; chartered to…

These data was all recorded in the catalogue. (3min 40 sec)

  1. 003_1

40 min 10 sec to 42 min 31 sec

 

On the type and number of vessels sold, along with total sale figures and dollar amount

では今度は記録的なものを少しいれましょう。これは委員会で取り扱った漁船の、売客船の内訳ですね。。。。カッド底曳その他が６１隻、合計９５０隻。　金額は＄１４２３１８１．８９

Let’s talk a little about the records.  As for the breakdown of the fishing vessels, the vessels that were sold, [Memoir Masutani trans, pp.27-28] there were 67 Seiners, 121 Packers, 69 Trollers, 632 Gill-netters, 61 Cod-fishing boats, trawlers and other boats, for a grand total of 950 vessels. In monetary amount, the total sale was $1,423,181.89.

でそのほか、繋船区域へ繋船されたもののなかに、白人の缶詰会社の名義になっているものが２００隻あったわけです。それらはみんな解除しました（の）ですがね、もちろんこれも、ある意味に於いては日本人が部割を持っていた節がたくさんあると思うんです。

However, aside from the vessels that were moored in the impoundment areas, there were 200 vessels that had the title of white canneries. All of these were released, but I think the Japanese had shares in many of them. As for why, about 140 were released quickly, because the canneries brought documentations that evidenced [their ownership]. They claimed that they had rented their vessels to the Japanese, but now the vessels were impounded, and they ought to be returned so that they can go out and fish. So we released them. But at the end, there were 200 vessels of this kind. The breakdown of these vessels is 1 Seiner, 9 Packers, 5 Trollers, 145 Gill-netters, and 40 Cod-fishing boats, trawlers and other boats.

それなぜかっていうと、その２００隻を解除するにあたってですね、最初に１４０隻くらいは早いうちに解除したんです。それはなぜかっていうと、缶詰会社が証拠書類を持ってきましてね、これはうちの船だと、ただ日本人に貸しとったんだから、それでその繋船したんだから、返してもらわなくっちゃ、さっそく漁にかからなくちゃならないということで、解除したんですが、しかしそれが結局しまいには、合計２００隻になったわけです。でその内わけが。。。巾着網船が一つ。。。カッドや底曳が40、とこうなってます。

  1. 003_2

12 min 45 sec to 16 min 50 sec

On the vessels damaged under Navy’s management

Masutani, trans, p.32

Kimura, 35

それから、え～、損害補償件数ていうのがあるんですね。これは、その船が繋船中に傷んで修繕したもの、それから全損したもの船価見積もりをして、話をつけたもの。それから、その全損だけでもまだその船主との折り合いがつかなくて未解決なものがあった。それと一般補償。

Let me talk about compensations for damaged vessels. There were vessels that were damaged while being impounded, and so they were repaired. There were also vessels that were classified as Total Losses. To these, estimates were calculated and we settled the matter with the owners. But in some cases, a settlement could not be reached, and so there were unresolved cases of the damage incurred. Additionally, there were cases of General Compensation.

それでこの造船所払いのものは、２６４隻、それが金額にして５５１９１．６９、それから全損として見積もりして保障したのが１５隻ですね、え～6833.12、それから未解決の分でですね、そのため金額が不詳になっておりますが、４隻、それから一般保証っていうのが４００隻あるんですけど、これはいろいろ用具に不足があったり、その見つからなくってだめだったとか、そういう船具の不足なんかがですね、４００隻に上ったわけで、それに対して２７２７０．６５.

Repairs were made to 264 vessels, hence the Committee paid the shipyards a total of $55,191.69. Fifteen vessels were classified as Total Loss, amounting to an estimate value of $6,833.12. For four vessels, settlement with owners could not be reached, and to them the damage amount is unclear. As for 400 cases of General Compensation, these refer to the cases in which equipment was deficient and could not be recovered and things like that. Such deficiency of equipment applied to 400 vessels, and for that, $27,270.65 was allocated.

それから、それで合計６８３隻に対してですね、この未詳分を除けた金額が８９２９５．５０あったわけです。でこの、日本人の船を繋船した時に、相当無理をして痛めとるのがわかってましてですね、その政府としても、それは日本人の船主に払ってもらわなきゃならんからっていうんで、委員会から報告したもんですからね。漁業省の予算として８００００ドル見積もって議会がそれをパスしたわけです。ところがここに８９２９５．５０ということになったもんですからね、たぶんこれはどこの予算でとったか私は確報はないんですけども、しかし前々からの関係で、たぶん漁業省の予算として、見積もって払ったものと思います。

Therefore, leaving out the cases in which the damage remains unclear, the total of the compensation amounted to $89.295.50. But from the onset, it was known that some vessels were damaged due to the rough handling of vessels. It was understood that the government would have to compensate for that, and the Committee submitted a report to that end. So the Department of Fisheries had came up with the estimate of $80,000 to cover for the damage, and the parliament had passed it. But in actuality, the damage was assessed at $89,295.50. I don’t have a definite source that tells me from where the additional amount came, my sense is that it was covered by the budget of the Department of Fisheries.

聞き手：　これだけの損害のお金をそれぞれの船主がもらったわけですか。

Interviewer: Then the boat owners received all this money for the damage?

木村：　ええ、そうです。それは当然な話なんです、つまり売る場合船具の不足したものは、見積もってやはり払わなきゃならんでしょ、それからそれだけつまり売却値段から引かれるわけですから、どっかからそれを補填せなきゃならんのです。それから痛めたものはもちろん直したのですから造船所払いというのが相当な金があるわけですね。

Kimura:  Yes, that is correct. That is to be expected because, when a boat is sold, deficiency in equipment would be accounted for in the sale price, that is, certain amount of money would be deducted. Hence, that deduction has to be covered somehow. And the damaged boats had to be repaired before they could be sold, hence quite a lot of money was paid to the shipyard for the repairs.

聞き手：この船具の不足とかそういうとこには、そのなくなったとか、そういうことが入るわけですか。

Interviewer: Were things that went missing included in the category of vessels with deficiency in equipment?

木村：　ええもちろんそれは入るわけです。

Kimura: Yes, of course they were included. 16‘50“

  1. 003_2

18 min 15 sec to 20 min 30 sec

On the passes issued to perspective buyers, with reference to the problem of theft and vandalism

それから、うーん、この売却するときにお客さんが来てもなかなか、その、一時は封鎖水域にいってもなかなか商売ならんっていうくらい混雑していたもんなんですけどね、やはり、この、委員会のほうから発給するパスをもたない人をあそこへ入れたらですね、海軍省としても困るというわけです。ですから、確かにこの人ならお客さんになるっていうもの（人）だけを送ってもらわなくちゃ困るからというわけですね、それでいちいち委員会でパスを発給したもんです。その結果ですね、１月２８日から７月１５日までに、その、許可証を発給した人員は３８６２名あったわけです。

When we were selling the boats, the impoundment site became so crowded that it became difficult to do business. The Navy, which oversaw the site, was much troubled by this, and told us that we should establish a pass system, and only let those with passes issued by the Committee into the area.  In other words, Naval officials said to us that we should only let those people who were perspective buyers into the area, hence the Committee came to issue passes. As a result, passes were issued to 3,862 individuals from January 28th to July 15th.

Interviewer：ずいぶん大勢の人が。新聞で広告したわけですか？

So many people came to see the boats. Did you advertise in newspapers?

木村：ええ、新聞でもちろんいちいちこういうことを発表してね、記事として発表してからに、こうしてもらわなくちゃいけないと、ところがそれで新聞社で悪口を言われたこともあったんですよ。けれども、まあ、まるで海軍省と委員会とで、パスだなんだって言ってからに、さっぱり商売にならんって言うてですね、悪口言われたもんですよ。けれども、そうしなかったら、あー、この、秩序が立たないわけですよ。片っぽは剣付鉄砲もって見張りしてるんですけども、それでも物がなくなったり、なかにものを水中に放り込んだりしたものがあったらしいんですよ。ですから海軍省では随分手を焼いてますよ。

Kimura: Yes, we announced these matters in newspapers, that is, we featured notices in newspapers to let the public know how things worked with respect to buying seized boats. But the press slandered us for that by saying, “the Navy and the Committee are speaking of passes and such; they are making it more and more difficult for people to buy these boats.” They said such things. But the truth is, we could not establish order [without regulating access to the impoundment site]. Indeed, the site was guarded by rifle-bearing Navy officials, but even then things went missing. Things were even thrown from boats into the sea. Indeed, the Navy was much troubled by this kind of behaviour.

 

  1. 004_1 and 004_2

004_1, 27 min 35 sec to 29 min 44 sec, then continue to 004_2, 0 min 50 sec

On the immeasurability of the losses

それからですね、この、委員会ではできるだけ日本人の船主が満足するようにですね、自由に取引することを、まあ、すすめてったわけですね、そうすればまず気に入った値段で売るからというつもりだったんです。

It should be noted that the Committee, in order to satisfy the Japanese boat-owners, encouraged free negotiations and transactions [between boat-owners and buyers]. The intent was that this would allow the owners to sell at prices they were more or less happy with.

しかしわたくしのこれはまあ予想だけですけどね、なかにはIさんみたいに、わざわざ６００ドルあるものを２００ドルで売ったという人もあるくらいですからね、やはり日本人がこの漁船を売って相当の損害はあったと思います。

However, this is my presupposition only, but considering, for instance, the case of Mr. I who sold his boat, which had the appraised value of $600, for $200, I believe that the loss that Japanese incurred by selling their fishing boats was considerable to say the least.

けども損害を見積もる、この基礎になる数値というものはないわけですよ。これがこの、大きな船でしたらね、統合トン数がなんぼ、１０トン以上のもので、British registryのものでしたら、まず船価見積もりがこれだけ、それから原価がなんぼ、Replacement valueがなんぼちゅってしますからね、ある程度、まあ、これくらいが正統な値段だっていうことが見当つきますけどね、小さな漁船はそれがないわけですよ。

But there is no baseline figures by which to assess the loss. For large boats, with the total tonnage of over ten tons that were registered by the British Registry, there was a system in place to assess the boat value, replacement value, original price, and so on; hence for large boats we can discern what the legitimate selling price might be. But it’s an altogether different story for small boats because there was no methods to appraise them properly.

ですから一体この120何万ドルで売ったっていってもですね、これでなんぼくらい損があったかって言ったら、見当がつかないわけです。しかし損があったっていうのはですね、いわゆる日本人が売らなきゃならん立場だったっていうのが一つですね。まあ、ひとつはですね、いつまで戦争が続くかわからない、それで船を保管してもですね、さきほど言いましたように。。。

Therefore, even though we can say that the boats were sold for $1.2 million, we are clueless as to what the actual loss was. All the same, this loss has to be considered in light of, for one thing, the factors that surrounded the Japanese which gave them no choice but to sell. First of all, it was not known how long the war would go on. And even if the boats were stored, as I mentioned earlier (cut, end of file 004_1)

(beginning of file 004_2)そうしてまた陸上に仮に保管して、どっかの十分設備のあるところへ頼んだとしてもですね、だれかが来て、むちゃなのが来てからに、コンとやられて船がいたむかもしれない。それと、まあこの移動先でですね、生計の不安っていうものがあって、それをまあいろいろと思いめぐらすと、やむをえず思い切って売ろうっていう気持ちになるのはもう仕方がないだろうと思うんですね。ですからそういう点で日本人はある程度損しても、もうどうしようもないという気持ちであきらめたと思います。

For instance, even if a boat was stored on land, at a proper storage facility, someone could easily come and vandalize it (sic. strike it). And as the Japanese were forced to move, there were much economic insecurity and anxiety. When they thought about these matters, I think they felt compelled to sell. Therefore, I think they gave up on the situation, and accepted that they would have to incur some losses.

  1. 004_2

0 min 50 sec to 8 min 37 sec

On Kimura’s assignment to the Advisory Committee of properties in Greater Vancouver and his conversation with Yamaga on that topic

これは日本人の所有財産処分をですね、カストディアンが全部管理しとって、そして、あちこちに損害があるものですからね、どういてもこれはある程度処分せなあかんということらしかったんですね。それで、この、１９４３年の３月からですね、５月にかけて、私がそこ諮問委員の一員としてからに入っとたわけです。

The Custodian was fully in charge of the properties owned by the Japanese, but because there were damages to those properties here and there, it was understood that they had to be, to some degree, disposed of. And I was a member of the Advisory committee from March to May of 1943.

いろいろとね、廻ってみますと、なかなか、そのカストディアンが少々番人付けとっても、日本人の持ち家でその空き家になっているでしょ、ですからね、あちこち損害がだいぶあるんですよ。それでやむを得ずに処分することになったんですよ。仕方がないからまたその再度勤めに出ましたですよ。それで、結局売るよりほかもう保護する道がないということになったわけですね。それでどうゆう方法を講じて売るのがもっとも日本人の損害を限度で防げるかっていうことで、それをもうカストディアンもいろいろと苦労して考えていたらしいんですがね。

When we went around, we noticed a considerable amount of damage to Japanese properties. Even if the Custodian stationed guards, Japanese-owned houses that were empty were damaged (vandalised and looted). Therefore, it was decided to sell them. And I had to serve once again. It was understood that there was no other way but to sell. The Custodian had been struggling to find ways of selling that would minimize the loss of the Japanese.

それにあたって、わたしは最初から任命されたわけじゃないんですよ。そのRCMPからね、電報が来まして、やって来いっていうことでしょ。それでCol.Herryにあったところが、それはなんだ、Mr.McPhersonお前に是非相談したいっていうから、言ったんだから、ぜひすぐに行ってくれ、それからSecurity CommissionのMr.Colinsっていうのが、あれはCommissioner of Japanese Placementっていう役持ってましたがね、それにも相談があるっていうけども、とにかく最初McPhersonとこ行ってくれって言うんでね、行ったんですよ。

I was not appointed as a committee member from the start. A telegraph from the RCMP came, which told me to go and do it. So I met with colonel Herry, and he said, “Mr. McPherson has a matter that he wants to discuss with you, so please go see him right away. And Mr. Colins of the Security Commission (his title was the Commissioner of Japanese Placement) wants to talk to you, too. But first of all, go and see McPherson.” So I went.

ところが日本人のどうも財産を処分せなきゃならんとね、で、誰かそのお前の知った人で適任者があったら推薦してくれって言うことだったんです。それで私はそうだね、日本人んの商業家で、いい人があるからっていうんで、４名推薦したんですよ。そして地方の部では私は誰も知らないけどもね、Haneyの山家安太郎さんが一番いいと思うと、いうて話したんです。

He said to me that the Japanese properties had to be disposed of, and he asked me if I could make recommendations of suitable Japanese individuals to take on the job [to help assist with the disposal]. There were few merchants whose names came to my mind, and so I recommended four such persons for [selling of properties in] the Vancouver area. As for the rural areas, I told him that though I don’t know much about the region Mr. Yasutarō Yamaga of Haney would likely be the best candidate.

それがその結果それをOttawaへMcPhersonが電信を打ってですね、打ったところが、バンク―バー市内の分は、４人ともダメだったと、こういうんですね。わたくしとしては非常にこれは適任な人だと思ってたんですよ。わたくし自体がもう、その、土地だとか財産だとかちゅうものの見積もりなんか全然できないわけですから、知識も全然ないんですからね、それで、そういったら、それはなんだ、山家さんは非常にいい人だからっていうんで、すぐにバンクーバーへ出てきてもらうようにしたと、けれどもその他４人はだめだから、お前またやれって、こういうでしょ。

But it so happens that when McPherson reported to Ottawa, my recommendations [aside from Yamaga] were rejected. To me, these four persons were very suitable for the job. As for me [if they were to appoint me to the post, that is], I have no knowledge of land and properties on land, and so I can’t conduct proper appraisal of such things, you know. McPherson said that Yamaga is good, and that he had arranged for him to come to Vancouver immediately, but because the four persons are not acceptable, he asked me to take up the post.

いや、わたくしはだめだって、その、そんなあの、船ならまだ少しは見当がつくけども、丘にある財産はサッパリだめだからって言って断ったんですよ。いや、あのね、委員長はやっぱりそのSmith判事がやるし、それから、なんだ、日本人でもぜひ一人あったほうがいいと思うから、お前是非やれって、こう言うんです。いや、よく考えさせてもらわなきゃいけないって言うてね。

I said to him, “No, I can’t. Fishing boats were a different matter, as I had some knowledge of the industry, but I am clueless when it comes to properties on land.” I declined. But he insisted. He told me that that the Committee would be chaired by Justice Smith, that there should be a Japanese member on the Committee, and that I should do it. I said that this is something that I really need to think about.

それから数日たったんだけども、結局誰もその、Ottawaのほうじゃ指名しないわけですね。そのうち山家さんが出て見えて、そして、「おい、木村君、今度は何だな、えらいことになったな」って言うわけ。前からよく知ってましたからね、どうも仕方がないですな、言うたら、「いや、もう僕もこのHaneyのね、農家のために、一生を捧げるつもりだったんだけれども、こういうまあ、戦争ちゅうもんが突発したらもう仕方がない、だからもう僕はなんだな、これがHaneyの農家の葬式だっていうつもりで、勤めるつもりだ、それでまあ、都合のいいことには、私の友達でMenziesっていうのがね、この土地売買をやっている。これが非常に親切ないい男だから、これを頼りに私はやるつもりだって、だから君ももう一遍やれよ」ってこう山家さんが仰ったんです。

A few days passed, and Ottawa did not appoint anyone. Mr. Yamaga came to see me. He said to me, “Hey Kimura-san, we now have quite a situation.” I knew him well, and said to him, “There is nothing we can do about the situation, is there?” He said, “You know, I was going to dedicate my entire life to the farmers of Haney, but once the war broke out, things have fallen out of our hands. As for me, I am going to do this as though it were a funeral of the Haney farmers. Fortunately, I have a friend named Menzies who is in real estates (sic. the business of buying and selling land). He is a very good and kind man, so I plan to rely upon him. Why don’t you do it, too, just one more time…”

「山家さん、あんたそう簡単に言われるけどね、私は、１９２０年から塩鮭塩ヘレンでもって苦労して、それで今度はこの戦争で、なんだ、それらの持ち船全部処分せなあかん立場になって、葬式はもう一回出してるんですよ、だからもう二回目の葬式だけは我慢してもらわなきゃこまる」って言ったんですけれどもね、「いや、なんだ、それでも片棒担いでくれ」っていう話からね、それでそのうちにとうとうそうやって二日ばっかりかかったと思ったら、McPhersonから電話がかかってきてからに、Ottawaでは再度君を任命したって言っておうでんかすう（？）が出たっていうわけです（7.35）だからやってくれっていうんで、

I said, “Yamaga-san, you make it sound so easy, but since 1920, I have dedicated myself to (sic. struggled) to the salt-salmon and salt-herring industry. With this war, I was forced into the position of disposing of all the fishing boats. So I’ve done the funeral once already. Please, I just can’t bear to do another one.” But he insisted, “Oh, but, come one, please shoulder the load with me.”

仕方がないからまたSmith判事のところへ行ったらね、今度は白人側のもう一人の委員はMr.Jonesっていうて、市会議員ですよ、しかしこれはもとね、市の鑑札の部のほうに働いて、おったひとで、非常に公平な人なんです。日本人や支那人に対して鑑札の発給の問題で排日・排支宣伝があった時も、この人だけは動じなかったです。これはもういいって言ったら、鑑札は下付した人です。だから、まあ、正義派っていや、正義派だし、いいんだけども、仕方がないからとうとうそれじゃもうなんだ、Jones議員頼りにしてからに、行こうっていうことでね、なんでも時間稼ぎましょうと思って稼いでいたですよね。

So I went to see Justice Smith and found out that on the hakujin-side of the Committee Mr. Jones was to be a member. He was a city councillor. Formerly, he was in the division that issued licenses, and he was a very fair person. When there were movements and propaganda against the Japanese and the Chinese, he alone remained fair and uninfluenced (sic. not moved). He issued licenses if applicants were good. He was righteous. So I made up my mind. I decided to serve and rely upon Jones. I tried to gain time and delay things (by not accepting the post rightaway?)